With the release of their eighteen studio album ‘Legal at Last’, things certainly aren’t slowing up anytime soon for Canadian heavy metal pioneers ANVIL. With the album receiving glowing reviews across the globe, the band has now undertaken another huge tour which takes them through mainland Europe as well as the UK, before heading back to the US & home to Canada. Steve ‘Lips’ Kudlow is someone I first met back in 2007 in my local village pub, when Anvil were recording ‘This is Thirteen’ at Chris Tsangarides’s Ecology Rooms Studios in Kingsdown, Kent. This was also the time they were filming the now renowned documentary ‘Anvil: The Story of Anvil’, which was to springboard them back into the limelight and create an incredible rebirth of one of the original forefathers of heavy metal. With Anvil back doing what they do best and consistently producing good solid new material and always backing this up with long tours, Anvil are well and truly back where they belong. ‘Lips’ took some time out to chat to The Rockpit about the new album, recording in Germany, bassist Chris Robertson’s input into the band and why his own brother was such a huge influence on his career…
LIPS: How’s it goin’ Sean?
Sean: Hey Lips, really good thanks mate. How are you doing?
LIPS: Great thanks, man.
Sean: Congratulations on the fantastic new album ‘Legal at Last’.
LIPS: Thanks man. It is awesome and it came out real good.
Sean: It definitely has. I know that we messaged many a time as you were getting ready to head to Germany to record this one and this is now your third album that you have recorded & produced there, so what is the attraction of going to Germany to record?
LIPS: It’s just top notch professional work, man. I think the combination of Anvil with this kind of production is amazing. If I go back and think of some of my favourite productions… in fact it’s the same thing with Scorpions – I loved the production on the Scorpions albums. German productions are really clear & powerful and I always wanted to one day record an album with that kind of sound and what eventually happened was we started doing business strictly with a German manager, the guy hooked us up with a producer… with Martin Pfeiffer and as it turns out Martin Pfeiffer is Udo Dirkschneider’s producer so my dream kinda came true [laughs].
Sean: It’s a country so renowned for its metal & heavy rock so it’s great that you guys have found a country that loves producing exactly the kind of music you guys love writing.
LIPS: Yeah, it really is the perfect combination. We are in the right place at the right time which is pretty difficult to get to actually happen for any band at any point… that’s really where the magic lies – being in the right place at the right time in this business. It’s really, really tough.
Sean: It’s hard to believe that ‘Legal at Last’ is your eighteenth studio album. And not forgetting that in Canada it really is legal at last [laughs]
LIPS: [laughs] Yeah man. Cool hey.
Sean: Some incredible tracks on the album and I’ve had it on again all morning. ‘Nabbed in Nebraska’ has that wonderful grinding, driving riff and ‘Chemtrails’ is another that sticks out with its really catchy chorus but the one for me is ‘Plastic in Paradise’ – it’s got a really bluesy metal feel to it and with Anvil being predominantly known for your more heavy style, it really sits forward for me.
LIPS: Yeah, it’s got real Black Sabbath roots and it’s very much a part of what I’ve always loved… so it’s certainly one of my favourites on the album and it came out real amazing so I’m glad you like that one.
Sean: For those that haven’t yet heard it yet there are eleven tracks plus a bonus track ‘No Time’ and it’s obvious to me that Anvil fans around the world are going to love this. Judging by the way things have gone since the kind of ‘rebirth’ of the band I can see this album sitting up there with some of the best work you have created.
LIPS: I do hope so and I hope your right. I think with every album we have been raising it a notch every time because we’ve finally got our momentum back. Ever since ‘This is Thirteen’… it’s like ‘This is Thirteen’ was our first album, you know what I mean? [laughs] In a certain sense it was, because all the albums we did in between were all self-produced – to me that’s not doing albums, that’s doing demo tapes. It’s like having a road manager – you need somebody to help direct it so that it all goes well.
Sean: Another constant on this album is Chris Robertson on bass, with this being his third album and now well and truly the final piece of the Anvil jigsaw.
LIPS: Yeah, along with the momentum is a great level of confidence that I don’t think I’ve ever had and part of what makes it that way is having Chris – I’m not saying that’s the whole reason why it’s all working but the third part of the puzzle needs to be right because otherwise only two thirds is working. Quite honestly we’d had issues for many, many years because part of the puzzle wasn’t there. I’ve never felt the confidence that I do today and one of those aspects is having a bass player who is a perfect complement to the drummer and that is really, really important. You can have a bass player and it’s a bass player but having the right bass player is much more bombastic… much more impressive. There are aspects in Chris’s playing that we’ve never had in the band and part of what makes it that way is that not only does he play with his fingers, he doesn’t use a pick he uses his finger nails like a classical guitar player and when you do that you get a much harder edge which is completely conducive and completely matched up with Robb’s (Reiner) playing. That combination is just over the top and that is just the best way I can describe it. I’ve never heard anything like that before. I’d say we are getting closer… it’s not 100% of what I’ve heard live and when it does it that 100% people are gonna shit themselves – it’s still yet to come… we’re getting closer [laughs]. I’ve never heard the combination of bass & drums like Anvil has today… I haven’t heard it in any other band to be really honest with you. No other band has a drummer like Robb Reiner to begin with but to have the right bass player with that too? Holy shit man!
Aside from the bass playing having a second voice… in the early days the best aspect of the earlier version of Anvil was that Dave Allison’s voice really worked well with mine so what we did sing together had a very impressive sound and that got lost when he left and had not returned all through the years, until now. I would have to honestly say that’s more important than any second rhythm guitar could ever be, especially live. It was much, much more important for us to get a second singer than a second guitar player – way more important. The second guitar is ultimately redundant. It’s doing what the bass guitar does anyway and when you have an incredible bass guitar player why are you burying it with a rhythm guitar. So what became ultimately important was that second voice… oh my god, we were playing ‘Free as the Wind’ with all this depth & harmonies – we never had that. Even in the original days Dave couldn’t sing as well as Chris does so the level of confidence I have today totally exceeds what it was. So, that’s how I feel about it and now it’s a case of keep going, keep writing and trying to get to that 100% point and we’re almost there [laughs].
Sean: It’s actually evident from the off with the title track which opens the album. The harmonies are clear to hear from the get go – almost layered in a way.
LIPS: Yeah, we did it on ‘Pounding the Pavement’ as well on ‘Bitch in the Box’ so it’s an on-going thing now and becoming part of what we do and it’s really, really important man. It’s that other layer that’s been missing for so many years.
Sean: You touched on Robb’s playing and once again he is as solid as always but it’s when you see that drum solo he does on a live show… it’s just incredible.
LIPS: He’s just excellent isn’t he?
Read the review of Legal At Last
Sean: What was the timeline like for writing this one? You guys never seem to stop because if you’re not recording, you’re out touring so when do you find the time?
LIPS: That’s a very good question, Sean. That’s what’s not easy [laughs] but we find time. Part of the way you find time is like right now… right at this moment I have time. It’s the space of time between finishing an album and it coming out – you have about four months so believe it or not before that album comes out I’ve got to be compiling ideas for the next one, like I’m currently doing. I’m loading up the computer with all these riffs & stuff and when the time comes I’ll pull up the files and start putting songs together.
Sean: It just sounds like it’s never ending.
LIPS: It really is non-stop.
Sean: Since ‘This is Thirteen’ there has been quite a consistent flow of material from you guys – An album every two or three years, followed by worldwide tours but do you know what LIPS? When we do get to catch up every now and again I can see that spark in your eyes & can see what it means to you and that is something really special. I can see it’s the place you need to be, out there in front of the audience, playing this incredible music.
LIPS: Well, it’s been forty years waiting for it [laughs]. People talk to me about my heyday… man, I’m living my heyday – people are so fuckin dumb, man [laughs]. They think the first three albums were the be all and end all but that’s nothing compared to what’s been going on the last thirteen years. It doesn’t even come close to the amount of shows we’ve done in the last thirteen years – it’s unbelievable.
Sean: Well, that brings us nicely to the tour because you guys are out on the road for a huge string of dates around Europe & the UK, beginning in France and taking you through The Netherlands & Germany – it’s where Anvil thrives.
LIPS: It’s pretty amazing, man. When did Anvil ever do fifty-three shows in Europe? Never. I’m living the dream now. This is the payday now. It’s just awesome.
Sean: Nothing planned for us down here in Australia just yet but I do know how much you all love coming down here to visit & play for the fans and we love having you here too so hopefully something gets locked in.
LIPS: Yeah, there’s a good chance. It’s certainly not out of the realms of possibility that’s for sure. We have a pretty good running record down in Australia and we did pretty well on the last tour. It’s just that they don’t like having you every year but it’s almost time… we’ll see what happens. I was down in Australia just before Christmas… it was at the beginning of the terrible fires. One of the days I was in Sydney, I was like “Holy Shit man” – you could barely breathe from all the smoke from the bush fires. It was really scary man.
Sean: It must have been nice to come here to visit for a holiday rather than work, after you had played some shows in Japan. Those tour schedules normally leave you no time to see or do anything other than play & travel so to be able to come and stay with friends must have been great.
LIPS: I really got to see Melbourne & Sydney this time in a much more thorough way. I did all the tourist things which you don’t get to do when you come and play. When we tour we get to see the venue, the restaurant and the airports [laughs] but that’s about it. Sometimes we go out on stage and we are like, “Where the fuck are we?” [laughs]… I always have to ask before we go out there so I make sure I get it right [laughs] because honestly there’s nothing is more embarrassing than going, “Hello Cleveland” and your somewhere else [laughs]
Sean: [laughs] I can imagine that could be quite awkward. If we have time I’d love to take you back to the early days before Anvil. I read that your father gave you your first guitar when you were around nine years old. Did he play the guitar himself?
LIPS: No, not at all. My father was a tailor and there was a guy who owned a jewellery store just two doors away from his tailors shop, who came in to get a suit made. In those days there weren’t many music stores so they guy also carried guitars in his jewellery store. What happened was the guy came in and said if you give me a better deal on the suit I’ll give you an electric guitar and so my dad agreed and that’s how it came to be. Joking aside my dad said it was the worst decision he ever made [laughs].
Sean: [laughs] Fantastic. So as a young lad growing up, what was the music that was being played in your house?
LIPS: Well, I had an older brother & an older sister which was kind of a lucky thing really because even before the guitar entered the house I was listening to The Stones & The Beatles, even Elvis Presley for that matter. Being born in 1956, I think the first song I have a recollection of hearing was ‘All Shook Up’… I can still remember seeing Elvis Presley on The Ed Sullivan Show and wondering why they would only show his face [laughs] because at the time they wouldn’t pan down to show his hips gyrating and his pelvic thrusts… they just wouldn’t show it on TV. I was intrigued to see if he was playing guitar or what else he was doing [laughs].
Sean: Were you a naturally gifted guitarist or was it something you really had to work at?
LIPS: Well, my dad brought the guitar home and we didn’t have an amplifier so my older brother was quite savvy with electronics so he hooked the guitar up to the stereo system that we had and away we went – it was pretty crazy [laughs]. Having an older brother made it easier for me to quickly learn stuff because we went and got The Beatles Rubber Soul song book with all the chords in it so that was kind of our learning book on how to play the chords. So, he taught me how to look at the chord pictures and where to put my fingers. He would still tune the guitar because I was only nine or ten at the time so I didn’t understand how to do that. As time went on he would show me how to do it by harmonics and listening for the vibration and when the vibration stops between notes then it’s in tune… all the basic fundamental stuff was taught to me by my older brother & that was really cool and although he didn’t go on to play like I did he really was a great source of inspiration in the way he would say, “Go on, learn stuff”. It was so great. And I remember we had these little tape recorders and of course with these recorders we would tape ourselves… to me it was like “I’m gonna start recording”.
I learned most of my playing by creating – it was discovering the instrument & learning the instrument by creating and not by copying. I started writing immediately and that’s how I learned. The philosophy my brother had was that you’re not going to get anywhere playing someone else’s music so you might as well make it up as you go. That’s what everyone else was doing and he said to me to keep doing it so I would get used to it and then become a songwriter – that’s what being a musician really means. So, it was the right direction for a kid and really, really clever. His turning me on to The Rolling Stones and I’d listen to it and without knowing what I’m doing I’d try to make sense of what I’m hearing and try to create the sound by just fooling around and experimentation and that’s how I learned how to play. I did take guitar lessons but by the time I started taking them I had quite an in-depth knowledge into what I was doing and it wasn’t teaching me what I ultimately needed to know, which was how to write. Learning how to play your instrument doesn’t teach you how to write, you actually develop it on your own by experimentation and trial & error. So I would record this stuff and take it to my older brother and he’d freak out and go, “Wow, your making up songs. This is great – keep goin’.” It was the right thing to do and I learnt so much from writing rather than just playing.
Sean: So is it easier to write a song now compared to when Anvil started out?
LIPS: It’s actually become easier now because at this point in time and from all I’ve learnt over the years, I’ve found that complexity is a waste of time. That’s how you waste time and you don’t want to waste time when you write because the best writing is done quickly, when I was a little kid, when I didn’t know any better. As you learn and you get better you just want to throw the kitchen sink at your songs and make them complex because you’re thinking complexity is what impresses people but it actually does the opposite. The more complex your songs are, the harder it is for people to comprehend what you’ve done so you have to find some kind of even middle ground between complexity & simplicity in the sense that you’ve got integrity by what you’ve written but it doesn’t have to be so complexed that it takes a person a hundred times to listen to your song to get to understand what you’re doing. What we’ve been on for at least the last number of albums is to be able to write songs in the sense that when you can identify just by the music what your chorus is or where the chorus is in the song. If you can hear it in the music then you’ve done a good job. If you listen to a bed track without any singing on it and you can’t tell one part from the other and it just sounds like a string of parts, that’s not good and that’s too complex – now you’ve gone the wrong way. You have to be able to identify musically what a chorus is, what you’re verse is, what your sub-chorus is and where the guitar break is just by listening to the music. Once you understand how that all works song writing becomes a lot easier and you get a lot more thorough and more convincing songs.
Sean: With all this new material now out there for everyone to hear you must be itching to get out on the road a finally play it. It must almost be like keeping one big secret knowing you have new songs as your finishing the last tour but not able to play them.
LIPS: Yeah, that’s exactly right. We’ll be playing three new tunes on this tour – we normally do three new ones on every new tour. Doing more than that is not in your best interest because you’re going to start boring your audience.
Sean: It must be hard to pick a set list for you guys with eighteen albums to select from. Obviously everyone wants to hear the classics…
LIPS: And they do want to hear the new stuff too but not to the point that it takes away from all the old stuff. What’s actually happening is that the set is getting longer & longer [laughs]
Sean: Lips, you’re meant to be easing off as you’re getting older [laughs]
LIPS: [laughs] Yeah, you’d think so but there’s no sleep for the wicked [laughs]
Sean: Well before I lose you I’d just love to finish up with a couple of my regular questions if I may? If I booked you into a restaurant for a couple of hours and you could invite three guests from the music world, dead or alive, who would you choose?
LIPS: Probably Lemmy would be one of them. I’d love to sit down and talk to Ozzy for a while, Geezer Butler more so. And, err I don’t know… it’s a tough one but probably Geddy Lee from Rush. Plenty of bass players right there. I think the reason I’d like to sit down with Geddy Lee is that we come from the same city, both born here, we have a lot of background stuff too – both being Jews and both being in the music business our who lives and I’ve never met the man. It doesn’t make sense especially when you’re both in the same city and the sane business – its fuckin’ crazy man.
Sean: That’s a wonderful table of guests, Lips.
LIPS: Lemmy was an old friend and I loved the guy. He was a really, really good person and I will never be able to sit down and have dinner with him again but whatever man. I think one of the reasons I chose Geezer is because he was the lyricist for Black Sabbath and I’m intrigued. Although I’ve met him I’ve never really sat down and had a long conversation with him… he called me a “colonial cunt” many years ago [laughs]… a colonial Canadian cunt is what he actually called me! [Laughs]
Sean: [laughs] As a term of affection?
LIPS: Oh sure [laughs] When I was twenty-one years old I went down to Niagara Falls which isn’t far from Toronto to see Black Sabbath with Van Halen opening. I was standing on Geezer’s side of the stage – he knew the guy I was standing with because he was Tony Iommi’s guitar tech and they had met during the ‘Never Say Die’ recording and they had taken him to England… it was the guy they played the trick on by getting him arrested and thrown in jail for crossing the Scottish border [laughs] so Geezer was having a piss at us – you know what I’m sayin’? So, there I was standing with that guy that I’m talking about and Geezer sticks his head over the edge of the stage and goes, “You colonial Canadian cunt!” [laughs] I’ve been friends with the Sabbath guys since I was twenty-one years of age so it was actually very cool.
Sean: [laughs] A wonderful story to end on and I thank you so much for your time as always. We wish you, Robb & Chris all the best for the album & tour and we really do hope we get to see you visit us down here in Australia in the near future.
LIPS: Cool, thanks man. It’s awesome talking to you again, thanks Sean.
Sean: Cheers Lips.
