As a young man growing up with an affection for punk music and the anti-establishment connotations it brought with it, for Frank Turner getting to the top of the UK album charts with his nineth studio album ‘FTHC’, it was a time for mixed emotions. The jubilation of reaching the highest point of his career musically, as recognised by peers and fans alike, but also the nagging fifteen-year old boy inside of him that would have stuck his fingers up at his very own commercial success.
When I spoke to Turner back in 2023, I knew only a little of his previous works, his ethics, his love for playing live and his career. Talking to him about his love for performing, touring and doing it for the fans made me think of many an interview I had had in the past with an artist plugging his own show and agenda to help with ticket sales. I put myself forward to review the show at Perth’s beloved Astor Theatre (I like to follow through with a review after an interview) and had no idea what I was letting myself in for – a live event that became my gig of the year! Breath-taking and mind blowing are just a few of the adjectives I use… and still use now when I tell people not to miss him next time round.
Roll forward to 2024 and Frank has been hard at it again (where does he find the time?) with the release of studio album number 10, ‘Undefeated’. This time I vied for a front row spot when interviews were being lined-up, if only to tell him how much of an impact his live performance left on me. Over to you Frank Turner…
Frank: How are you doing, Sean?
Sean: Frank, great to speak to you again. I’m well thanks and you?
Frank: I’m very well, thank you. It’s the start of my day and the end of yours, so I’ve got coffee, you’ve got beer [laughs]
Sean: I’ve just got home from work, so I haven’t even got one open yet, but I hope you’ve still got that lovely picture of Deal sea front on your wall.
Frank: I do. Yeah, it’s upstairs. I feel like I should pick my laptop up and go and show you, but I’m plugged in. It would have made you feel more at home [laughs].
Sean: We briefly met as you ran out of the Astor back door and you stopped and I said, “I’m the guy from Deal”, and you turned around and gave me a hug and ran back into the car [laughs].
Frank: Yeah. Sorry about that. I mean, you know what an Australia tour is like. It’s completely madness [laughs].
Sean: Well, I can’t believe my first time seeing a Frank Turner show was that night. And I have to say, that was my gig of the year. Genuinely.
Frank: Oh, awesome. Thank you, man. That’s very kind.
Sean: It was the most incredible thing I’ve ever seen. It was just the whole package, the short gaps between the songs, the energy, the passion, your delivery with the way you talk to the crowd. Just the whole night, me and my partner, we were both blown away. Unbelievable.
Frank: Thank you very much, man. That’s kind of you to say. I mean, it’s a funny thing that we’re diving straight in, but I often feel like, my sort of trick, if you like… I grew up going to see hardcore punk bands and I play effectively a kind of folk rock show like I’m in a hardcore band. And it’s a weird mix. And, you know, like we play songs like we’re Sick Of It All or The Chariot or something like that. And, but they don’t sound like Sick Of It All, or at least not all of them. So it kind of works.
Sean: Well, the nice thing about that show in November was we did get a little taster of something new with the song ‘Do One’ from the new album ‘Undefeated’, which is fantastic by the way. I’ve had the album on for about three weeks. What an absolutely wonderful 10th studio album to celebrate with.
Frank: Thank you. That’s very kind of you to say. I mean, I find myself thinking about this record like it’s my 10th album and part of me is like super proud of that fact. It’s like double figures and, you know, not that many artists, bands, whatever, get to album ten.
There’s also, though, a sense of kind of like slightly like bamboozled surprise. It’s just like, Jesus Christ, is this still working? [laughs] Like, you know, like, holy crap. And I mean that both in terms of like people are still listening, but also, you know, I feel like I have things to say. I have songs to write and like I’m sort of pleasantly surprised by that.
Sean: You seem to just keep creating. I mean, I remember when we talked last time, that’s when you told me that album ten was already locked in and ready to go. So then you hit the road on a huge tour around the world. When do you get time to sit down and have time to yourself?
Frank: Yeah. I mean, that’s a good question. My wife would like to know the answer to. I mean, it’s funny. I used to tour harder than I do now, actually, when I was younger. And we scaled back a bit, partly because people in my band have kids. And you know, I live in a house now and I have a cat and I have a wife… And I’ve just said those two in the wrong order [laughs] But, you know, ultimately, it’s a little more pace than it used to be because I’m getting older. And I’ve got to take care of my voice and all that boring stuff. But, I mean, ultimately, I love what I do. You know, it’s such a privilege to travel around the world and play guitar for a living. Like, are you kidding? It’s mad but I like an intense schedule. I feel so privileged, as I say, to be able to play shows and all the rest of it. And I love it. I love it. And so I want to do more of it. And, indeed, we are about to embark on… my God, the tour. The schedule that we have for this record is actually slightly intimidating, I’ll be honest with you. But it’s going to be fun.
Sean: Well, hopefully, Perth is back on that list eventually somewhere. We can’t wait to have you back.
Frank: I will say this with a nod. I’m not allowed to say anything more than the fact that we will be in Australia on this album cycle. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink [laughs]
Sean: Fantastic -I will keep my ear to the ground. Something I noticed in the live show – 23 songs crammed into a show, which is incredible in modern eras. It’s a lot of songs in the set. But it also is very relevant to your studio album because there are 14 tracks on an album. That’s a lot of songs, a lot of things to say. Is it just a natural thing for you to be able to write so regularly? Does it come easily?
Frank: I hesitate to say easily because there are definitely kind of, you know, the old stereotypes about it being 3am in the morning, me pulling my hair out. That happens from time to time. But, I mean, I think the way I put it is that there are some bands who book studio time and then kind of write songs. When they’re in the studio or for the studio time they have booked or whatever. And that seems kind of mildly insane to me. That’s each to their own. But that’s just not how it works for me. I write until I have enough stuff to make a record. And then we book the studio time kind of thing, you know. And as I was saying, I’m sort of pleasantly surprised that I still feel like I have things to say. But I do spend a lot of time checking that. Do you know what I mean? I don’t want to just make a record because that’s what I do. That seems kind of the wrong approach to me, you know. And with this record, I mean, I love the fact there are 14 tracks. There are 14 songs in it. And it’s still under 45 minutes. Punk rock. You know. But it’s, yeah, I don’t want to repeat myself. I mean, I may or may not be successful in that. And that’s for other people to judge. But, you know, I want to make sure that I’m doing it for artistically integral reasons rather than just churning it out. Do you know what I mean? And then when it comes to set lists, like, I think about that way too much to be interesting all day every day. But I do try and make sure every time I play a full record. Headline show I make sure that there’s at least one song from every record that I’ve done. Because I’m aware that, you know, people have different favourites from the catalogue, as it were. So, like, when we tour this new record, we’re going to play a whole bunch of new songs. Of course we are. But we’re also, you know, there will be old songs too.
Sean: Nothing ended the night better than the fact that you had the audience eating out your hand and you managed to get the whole of the Astor Theatre to pirouette [laughs].
Frank: [laughs] That was a kind of stupid idea that came to me during a show one time. And I was bamboozled by the fact it worked. Do you know what I mean? I think we were in Germany and I did it. And I asked a German friend of mine, “what’s the German for pirouette?” And he was like, “pirouetten”. And I was like, great. Machen pirouetten. And so, I mean, I don’t want to nationally stereotype, but the Germans tend to follow instructions, shall we say. But it was like, it was mad. And we came off of that first show that I did it. And everybody was just like, wow, that worked. So, it became a thing for a while.
Sean: And, of course, they’ll probably pirouette a lot more efficiently than any other nation around the world and not use as much energy.
Frank: [laughs] Exactly. It’s incredible.
Sean: And, of course, with 14 songs to pick, as you said, many of them will make, or a few of them will make the set on the new tour. That must be a nightmare headache for you. Obviously, the new singles have gone down brilliantly well. ‘Letters’ I absolutely love. But it’s going to be so difficult to play them all. Is it as simple as a hand in the hat and pull out some names?
Frank: Yeah. I mean, it’s a fucking thing. When you put out a new record, we will play every song from the new record live over the next few months or whatever. Like, you learn reasonably quickly which ones are landing. Do you know what I mean? And, like, obviously, I hope in my heart that all of them will land and everybody will love every song. But, like, there’s definitely sort of about six months after an album comes out, you’re kind of like, well, that one’s in the set forever. And that’s a kind of occasional one.
Do you know what I mean? Because, I mean, ultimately, there is a degree when you’re writing a set list of leaving the audience as well as following it. You know, you play stuff and you’re kind of like, “hey, you don’t know this one, but I’m going to play it and you should pay attention.” But at the same time, you also kind of go, here’s one you’re going to go crazy for. And that’s probably, you probably lean a little more on the second one as time goes by.
Sean: One thing I noticed is how very personal a lot of the songs are to you. And I love those little bits in the show where you describe some and everything about the story behind them. I mean, ‘A Wave Across the Bay’ was just so beautifully explained to everybody. It brought a real sense of reality to the issues of mental health and how every one should be able to talk to someone. But then, as you say, this isn’t about delivering something that’s all doom and gloom. It’s about celebrating someone who was very dear to you. And it’s such an incredible song. I’m getting goosebumps right now just talking about it. It’s the power of a song like that. It’s just amazing.
Frank: Thank you. I mean honestly, as a listener, it’s the value that I sort of prize above all things. I remember to this day, one of my biggest song writing influences is a guy called Aidan Moffat from the band Arab Strap. I don’t know if you’re familiar with them. They’re a Scottish sort of indie-electro duo. But there’s a record called ‘Philophobia’ that you should check out. It’s absolutely staggering. And what I love about that record is that the very first time I put it on, the very first song on that record, he was, like, four lines in. And I was like, is this guy actually saying this stuff out loud so other people can hear? It’s so incredibly raw. And I love that as a listener, you know. I love that moment when somebody in a song says something that feels unretractable. You know what I mean? They say something and it’s just like, wow, that’s in the ether now. You can’t take that back. And I try and do a similar thing as a writer myself, you know. Art is interesting to me when it says the less obvious and the more intense things.
Sean: I’ve been listening to ‘Undefeated’ for a few weeks now. I haven’t yet gone right in deep with the lyrics as yet, which is something I will be looking forward to doing. It’s kind of like getting the songs in my ears. But there’s obviously going to be some in there that have got some very strong messages from your heart and from life experiences once again.
Frank: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so there was a moment, there’s a kind of ghost haunting the record to a degree. There was a moment in time when this might have been a concept album. It’s not a concept album and everybody’s very pleased about that. But, like, sort of the thing was I do this thing where I sort of have these endless, like, hypothetical arguments in my head when I’m trying to fall asleep. And it’s terrible for my mental health and all the rest. And I was talking to my wife about it a little while ago. And she sort of said, who is it that you’re arguing with? Which is a perceptive question. And I realized that arguably I’m sparring with my sort of 15-year-old self. And when I was 15, I was a punk rock purist and the world was black and white and my ideals still smelt of cellophane, you know. And, like, everything was very simple. But at the same time, I mean, that 15-year-old kid was a pretty damaged individual in a lot of ways, you know. I got sort of booted out of the house when I was 8 years old. And, you know, I wasn’t in a secure or particularly happy environment. So, and I think that that kid is very judgmental. And, I mean, the great example for me, like, on the last record, we got the number one in the UK. That’s fantastic. But 15-year-old me sort of defined himself by being the kind of person who didn’t like music that was in the charts. So the fact that I had number one was kind of conflicting for me in a lot of ways. And there’s a song on the record called ‘Ceasefire’, another song called ‘Somewhere in Between’, which kind of relates to this stuff. And it’s just, in a way… It’s kind of trying to reach out to that 15-year-old kid and give him a hug and just be like, it’s going to be okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, calm down, you know, and stop beating yourself up. Do you know what I mean? And just sort of trying to find some sort of peace, some sort of common ground with that version of myself. And, you know, ultimately, all of that is arguably quite solipsistic. And I’m having a conversation with myself on a record. But it’s… That is a thing that haunts my imagination a lot of the time. And I suspect I’m not the only one.
Sean: One thing that 15-year-old self will love is the fact that you can sing a song, you can have a number one album, but you can still jump in the crowd and kick an amplifier over [laughs].
Frank: Yeah, well, you know, I like to think that there’s… The spirit of punk rock survives one way or the other. So, yeah, you’re right.
Sean: I know we’re running very quickly out of time but I just wanted to mention the wonderful Sleeping Souls band because I got up close during the set and I got to watch them do the little step back and forward thing that always has, always had that little Shadows feel about it, which was just so cool. I picked up on it. But I have to say what an incredible band to have with you.
Frank: Yeah, I mean, they’re the best band in rock and roll, in my opinion. And in particular, a shout out to Callum, who’s our comparatively new drummer, who is just a source of joy and inspiration and I love him to bits. But like, you know, me and the core of the band, like we’ve been doing our thing for like 16 years now, I want to say, and they’re a huge part of the sound on the record. You know, I write the songs myself and I take it to the band and we figure out the arrangements together. And ultimately, I’m the kind of the casting vote, shall we say. But it would be ridiculous of me to kind of micromanage what everybody plays because they’re all brilliant musicians. I mean, a great example of that. There’s a lot of people of course. I mean, I commented in the song ‘Letters’. There’s a bass line in the second verse that people are very excited about. And what happened with that is like, I was like, hey, we should have a cool bass line in this verse. Take it away. And Taron, my bass player, who is Australian, incidentally, was like, you know, he was like, not a problem. And just came up with like all this insane stuff. We did actually have to get him to tone it down a little bit. There was one moment where it was starting to sound like Primus, which was perhaps a little much. But, you know, they’re great, great players. They’re a huge part of what I do.
Sean: By my own admission, one thing I haven’t really looked into is regarding Extra Mile Recordings? Have they been with you a long time?
Frank: Yes. So every single record I’ve put out since ‘The Million Dead Days’, has been with Extra Mile Recordings. What’s happened with this record, so basically about ten years ago, we licensed on from Extra Mile to Universal, to a major label. And we kind of, it got offered and it seemed like a dumb thing to say no. And I almost, I don’t want to say I took it. It was a bit of a shock. I mean, I did it with a pinch of salt. It was like, let’s see how this goes. And I was sort of expecting to do one record with them and get dropped.
And in the end, I did five and completed my contract with them, which I’m very, I’m proud of because it’s quite rare to actually complete a deal. But, you know, it came to an end and they wanted to do more. And I very politely said, thank you, but no thank you. And here we are, you know, and I’m sort of back to the structure. I mean, I’m sort of, I’m not entirely sure how many people care about this kind of thing. But for the record, back to the structure of how I was putting out records before then. And it feels great, you know. And it’s not like in those days, in my major label years that I was like being forced to do things I didn’t want to do per se. But there were times when I would have to like flex my muscles and fight quite a lot to get my way about stuff, shall we say. Whereas now it’s like I’m in full control of the ship. I produced this record myself, which I’m proud of and all that kind of thing. And ultimately, that means that if it’s not great, it’s my fault, which is what it is. But, you know, it feels really, really good. I feel like I’ve sort of come home in a way.
Sean: Well ‘Undefeated’ is a fantastic record, Frank and as always, thank you so much for chatting to us at The Rockpit. We can’t wait to have a sneaky check on when the dates are for Australia later in the year. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Frank: I’ve got in trouble so many times for sort of accidentally announcing tour dates. I’m now quite well trained, so I’m not going to say any more. But we will be back.
Sean: Exactly. Well, May the 3rd is release date. I can’t wait for it to hit the world. I’m sure it’s going to be as big a success. Don’t be too angry if it gets to number one again [laughs].
Frank: Well, I’ll finish with this. A lot of people are like, is there pressure now that you have a number one record? And there isn’t for two reasons. First of all, it’s like I kind of ticked that off my to-do list. Do you know what I mean? Done. Don’t need to do it again. But secondly, wonderfully enough, Taylor Swift is releasing an album two weeks before me, which means I’m not going to get the number one. And so the pressure’s off [laughs]. It seems unlikely to me that Taylor Swift is going to get the number one for some time. And good luck to her. I’m a big fan. She’s great. But I can continue doing what I do.
Sean: Frank, thank you so much for your time. Enjoy your coffee. Have a fantastic day. And we’ll see you nudge, nudge, wink, wink at some point.
Frank: Definitely. Thank you very much, Sean.
